From: S
To: Rebelprofiler
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:31 pm
Subject: Re: religion and stuff
Dissociative Identity Disorder. hahaha- Worship this deity- it's perfect except for the whole mental disorder where s/he sometimes doesn't know who s/he is. That just seems so strange to me. And yet, a fairly accurate representation of at least some explanations of the Trinity.
The whole "magic tricks" thing is what really brings into question the biblical miracles. With the limited knowledge of science 2000 years ago, a helluva lot of now explainable things defied the human knowledge and reason of the period. That said, what do you think of the more medical miracles of Jesus (healing lepers, giving sight to the blind, etc.)? I don't know enough biblical background to really know if these seem to be miracles, if there's a logical explanation, or what.
Huh, that's really interesting--the parallels between Jesus & Horus. I've studied some about the Egyptian gods (I was a weird kid, fascinated with mythology from a young age), but it's been a while so not surprising that I'm rusty. I'm definitely going to look into that, read the two stories back-to-back.
So, do you know if there's any reason why some Christians, some Catholics included, still stress the 10 commandments given that the 7 new ones were introduced? Is it just a lack of knowledge of their own religion?
And do you know much about the Christian devil? That's another Christian concept that's strange to me.
Why would Christians say that Jesus was speaking through divinity or in tongues when it can be proved that it was just from simple studying? It seems misleading which isn't exactly a good thing. Is there a reason why Christians so thoroughly ignore the Psalms of Solomon? Or, again, is it a lack of knowledge on the matter that sort of continued on until it got to the "he spoke in tongues!" point?
Agreed on the death matter.
I had more issues with death as a kid--again, weird kid: I was like 10 and worrying over death--but now it's not as much of a big deal. The way I see it, no matter what happens or what you believe will happen after death, there's no way to avoid it. So you can make yourself miserable troubling over it or you can go on with life. Life is ephemeral. So why waste time with ideas impossible to reconcile? You can think about it, sure, but letting it bother you is ultimately useless stressing.
It seems to me that a lot of the big atheist arguments for the flaws of religion can be used for atheism as much for religion, anyways. I even get finding it really damn hard to believe. But hardline atheism seems to me like another, albeit really strange, belief.
From: Rebelprofiler
To: S
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:27 pm
Subject: Re: religion and stuff
Somewhere in my travels and studies I came across someone who wanted to completely refute Christianity by proving the "miracles" weren't actually "miracles" but instead works of science and a lack of knowledge on behalf of the followers. After listening to that man, I remember thinking to myself about all the little "miracles" in both Torah and the Bible and really not buying into a single one of them. But thankfully, I'm Jewish and I don't have to buy into miracles nor do I have to use them as the basis for why I believe Judaism is the only religion doing it right.
Leprosy, as it is written in the Bible, was actually a form of psoriasis which can be cured with exposure to sunlight and rubbing oil on the skin. It wasn't leprosy as we know it today where your hand just randomly falls off (and even if it was, transportation to sanitary conditions and antibiotics will cure THAT leprosy). There's even a cure for it in Leviticus (so if we go with my prior belief, Gd handed down this cure) and it's repeated in Kings II but, again, Christianity is banking on you not reading your Bible.
I personally think Moses was a schizophrenic with heat exhaustion. But that's me. I don't think this NEGATES him from being a wunderkind who defined the Jewish people but the burning bush has always made me question the sanity of a man who chooses to lead a revolt against a stronghold dictator like Pharaoh based on what a flaming bush said. Was it Gd? Coulda been. Might have been. But I like logic. And what's logical to me is that he was wandering the desert too long and got hallucinations and delusions of grandeur.
That's not to say ALL miracles are acts of mental illness and lack of scientific knowledge. I feel like every Jew who escaped the Holocaust lived a miracle. Every shabbat candle that burned in Krakow was a miracle. Every time a baby is born is a miracle. Even though we have reduced the science of procreation down to a single celled organism and know how it plays out, the fact that that cell knows exactly how to divide and become a separate being, independent of the womb, is totally mind blowing for me. It all just depends on your perspective and for me, the miracle wasn't turning water to wine. The miracle of Jesus was reminding the Jewish people to love each other, be kind to each other, to listen, to reflect, to bring it all home to Gd. The blasphemy, for me, is when he claimed that HE was Gd.
The devil is a bit easier to explain than why Christianity disavowed the 7 Noachide laws in favor of the 10 commandments. When you peruse Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, the one thing you're going to notice is a lot of banal laws about stupid shit. It doesn't kick into story again until we're out to the Five books of Moses. I know of one Parshat (Weekly Torah reading) that is only about what materials you need to build an Ark of the Covenant. If it hadn't been a Bar Mitzvah weekend, I'd have slept through that shit and never bothered to note that you need 12 dolphin skins to encase the Torah, and beams that were about 60 feet long to carry it. I mean it's some boring stuff up in there. Another fact that's often overlooked is that the commandments are said twice in Torah: Once by Gd (in Exodus) and once by Moses (in Deuteronomy). And they're not in the same order. The opinion I have heard on this is that Moses felt that certain commandments were more important than the others so he rearranged them. There's also a flip-flop between "honor thy father and thy mother" and "honor thy mother and thy father" to prove that NEITHER parent (and thus neither gender) was more important than the other. In Biblical times, women were the focus on the religion, as they continue to be. Women are exalted and more special than men are in Judaism.
The 7 Noachide laws are as follows:
1 - Thou shalt not commit idolatry. There is but one Gd and we are commanded to ONLY worship that one Gd.
2 - Don't commit Incest or Adultery.
3 - Don't Murder
4 - Don't curse the name of Gd ("Besides honoring and respecting G-d, we learn from this precept that our speech must be sanctified, as that is the distinctive sign which separated man from the animals.")
5 - Don't steal.
6 - Don't eat the flesh of a living animal (which teaches us not to be cruel to animals)
7 - Mankind needs to establish courts and systems of justice to enforce the 6 laws and other such laws that are good for humanity.
I mean it's kind of a no brainer, if you ask me. And these laws were established in Genesis and reiterated in Jubilees.
I just really don't honestly think too many Christians have READ the Bible though or they'd all have serious crises of faith and the whole religion would just fall apart at the seams. I think they all say "oh I read my Bible" and to a degree they read PARTS of it, like a verse here, a paragraph there, MAYBE all four of the gospels if you're lucky. But nobody sits down with the Bible and READS it for real like a book. I don't even think too many religious leaders do either. I think they get a list of scriptures in preacher man school and just run with it. I've YET to see a preacher man read a scripture in context and I know I hear similar sermons every time I go into a church. It annoys the hell out of me because, as a Jew, we read the WHOLE TORAH - even the boring parts - every single year and we study it and argue it and read the accompanying literature. That's why we have the holiday of Simchat Torah. To celebrate that we're starting it over again. Hooray! Another year of reading about how many dolphin skins to affix to the Tabernacle. Yay. (/sarcasm)
The devil is a bit easier. Christians are like football fans. There's the home team (Gd, Jesus and whoever else they thought was awesome) and their arch rival (Satan). What fails my logic is WHY Satan is the source of all the evil in the world when Torah is explicitly clear that Gd is the source of all evil. And all the good too but also all of the evil. I mean, Gd says this, over and over and over... "I will create evil upon you." But then suddenly in Job, this random sideliner pops out onto the playing field and stats raining down hell fire and all of a sudden HE is the source of all evil. Have you ever read the Book of Job? Fascinating read. What struck me MOST about Job was how Gd talked to Satan like they were FRIENDS. If you're my arch nemisis who is running around fucking shit up and I created you, I'm gonna smite the fuck out of you - not have a pleasant conversation and make a friendly wager with you about who can fuck up this man's world more. That's just what I would do here. I would SMITE. THEE. Gd created Lucifer. Lucifer was Gd's most favored angel. Then Lucifer wanted to have free will like Adam and was kicked out of heaven to rule hell and be in a constant tug-of-war, hateful relationship with Gd over humanity. Where did THIS shit come from? Apocrapha. It's not canon until Paul gets involved and starts claiming Satan as the source of all evil WAY into the New Testament. All through the Old Testament you see Lucifer pop up and do Gd's bidding - EVEN IN JOB, where he's basically the prosecutor of Gd's court.
For the record, when Isaiah is screaming about "the Morning Star" he's not talking to Lucifer but the king of Babylon, who as we all know was a ruthless dictator. Lucifer is totally still in Gd's good graces, all the way through scripture. Now YOUR version of the Bible might list Isaiah 14:3-5 as saying "Lucifer" or "Satan" but my Hebrew scripture has "The Morning Star" and other than Satan wandering around aimlessly in Job, there is ZERO mention of him being the prince of darkness. That idea came with Christianity.
Why they needed a devil seems easy enough. It's good vs. evil all up in Christianity. Ever notice how Evangelicals always seem to feel oppressed and like their religion is under attack when IN FACT they're in the majority? Same logic applies to Satan. They needed a fall guy. They HAD to be the good side and on this good side over here is Gd and Jesus. And over THERE on the BAD side is Satan and your yetzer hara (evil impulse).
Now in Judaism, your Yetzer Hara is a gift from Gd from creation, not some little man with a pitchfork all up in your ear. In the creation story, Gd says "we shall make Adom (which means person) in our image." Judaism believes Gd was talking to the animals when She said this. First off, man was not created and then came woman. The person created, Adom, was both male and female, as Gd is both male and female. But Adom was lonely because there was no other Adom to see, so Gd separated them AT THE SIDE (note: not the rib, at the side) so that they could see each other and named them Adamah (earth) and Chava (life). When Adom was created, Gd had already created the animals so Gd said to them "We shall make Adom in our image." This means that each person has both a spiritual, Gdly side (the yetzer ha'tov), and an animalistic side (the yetzer hara) to them. This was totally intentional. And through mitzvos, we pull our yetzer hara more in line with our yetzer ha'tov. Like eating. Eating is an animalistic act. It is a yetzer hara. But when we say the proper blessings over foods that are holy, we change the animal act into a holy one. Judaism doesn't believe in this epic good vs. evil cage match to the death. Gd creates all the good. God also creates all of the bad - including Lucifer, including the serpent in the garden, including all of it. But what is viewed or called "evil" in Judaism is not always "evil" in the Good vs. Evil Christian sense. It's just what it is.
I know I didn't get to your questions on Jesus reciting apocryphal texts, but I am totally beat after a long monday and I'm gonna curl up in front of the TV. I'll hit it next go around.
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