From: S
To: Rebelprofiler
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:16 pm
Subject: Re: religion and stuff
Oh, right on. I knew a fair amount of background on Jesus, but you're still definitely teaching me stuff.
Now the first point--Jesus is the messiah--confuses me a bit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the messiah still is not a god, right? So, going off the Judaic background of the concept of a messiah Jesus couldn't be entirely divine if he was messiah, right? I mean, obviously the messiah'll be a great guy and all, but not another deity (as the Christian line of argument implies)... I think. Or do I just not know enough about the idea of the messiah?
I never got the Jesus-rising-from-the-dead story that I heard every year in church. Everything on Christianity was presented in something of a rather logical way (though there is some of that circular reasoning, of course), and then Easter comes 'round and suddenly it's all ghost story time. Presented as fact, not parable or other such thing. Confused me so much, though as a kid I didn't really ask questions on the matter. So they quite possibly could've been stoned. Makes sense I guess. Wait, it's backed up by Paul's claims? Not telling us that the divine said anything on the Jesus matter, just one random man who knew the guy and later liked to write some letters... okay then.
I knew Jesus didn't fit all criteria for being messiah, but thank you for outlining that for me. So, 3/10 for Jesus.
If Jesus is supposed to be the messiah, why is there the complicated resurrection story when not having him raised from the dead would better have suited the case for his being the messiah?
Uh-huh. So when Jesus was on Earth his dad was like missing a leg or something? Yeah... I still have a hard time coming close to believing the Trinity thing.
Actually, I asked someone to explain it to me the other day. The answer I was given was: 3 parts of one god. Okay, knew that, so I asked it be explained to me in detail. Again the response "it's simple, 3 but one!" After a short while I just gave up as it was getting absolutely nowhere.
Do you know if there is any particular reason why certain O.T. books were even included in the Christian Bible? For example, they kept parts outlining Jewish dietary laws. Then it's all "just kidding, eat whatever, don't need to keep Kosher" later on. What's the purpose of such inclusions?
Oh, yeah no problem, you're certainly teaching me loads about Judaism and Christianity. I feel like I should research at least a bit into Islam though. I'll have to look into it some time later.
So, drama clearly existed in biblical times too, eh? Certainly an interesting story, but first impression, it reminds me of modern day who's-sleeping-with-whom family fight thing.
From: Rebelprofiler
To: S
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 2:22 pm
Subject: Re: religion and stuff
According to Judaism, Moshiach is not a Gd, he is not PART of Gd, he has no more Gd part to him than any other man or woman born (in the sense that we're all "children of Gd" and all of us have a divine spark in us). The only thing Gdly about him is that he leads a Gd-centered life, reveres Gd, and teaches Gd's word. And really that could be ANY person on the face of this earth, which is why at every Jewish brit milah (or bris) you will see a random chair sitting in the corner that NOBODY can sit in - that is Elijah's chair to sit in if THIS boy happens to be Moshiach. In some traditions the chair is mounted to the wall to prevent people from sitting in it. I know my ex-fiance and I talked frequently about whether or not to mount the chair, as I come from the tradition that does and he came from the tradition that does not.
You also have to keep in mind that VERY FEW Christians hold that the New Testament was written by Gd. There are SOME who do (and they protest soldier's funerals and such), but by and large, Christianity (including Catholicism) holds that the Bible is "The Inspired Word of Gd" (and many Bibles say this on their cover page) where "inspired word" means that Gd was speaking to a man and a man was writing it all down. (Orthodox) Jews are different in that we believe the first four books of the Torah (and nothing else) were ACTUALLY written by Gd and handed down at Sinai on tablets made of Sapphire (that, by the way, floated down the mountain on their own) and that is why Halacha is completely and totally binding. Conservative Judaism holds that Moses went up to the mountain and Gd dictated it to him, which means that MOST of Halacha is binding but is adapting and changing. Reform Judaism thinks Moses thought it all up on his own and that's why Halacha is not binding in our present day. For my own tastes, having read the whole entire Bible three times, and Torah at least 7 more, I personally don't feel like Genesis through Numbers could have been written by the same man who wrote Deuteronomy all on his own. They don't make the same bit of sense nor is the language used the same. The rest of Tanakh (the Hebrew scriptures) was very clearly written by Men, because it makes sense in human logic OR the book clearly states that there was a human author involved (as is the case with Deuteronomy), and nobody in Judaism would argue against that point (though they might argue "divinely inspired" or not). But those first four books are kind of beastly to read and a lot of time it doesn't make a damn bit of sense. But the way that Christians ACT about their holy scriptures (especially new Christians in very charismatic denominations) makes outsiders a lot of times think that they themselves believe The Bible was indeed written by Gd. Officially though, it's the INSPIRED word of Gd.
Given that, it makes total sense that a good 90% of the NT was written by Peter and Paul. Some Christians will even openly admit that Peter and Paul were writing about Jesus from the ends of their lives (though they might tack on the "FROM JAIL/OPPRESSION" bit that has been refuted by Biblical scholars the world over), nearly 60-some odd years after the Resurrection. Many Christians that I know will also freely tell you that Peter and Paul were writing to the Jews in the NT, though some will say so with an evil undertone, as if all Jews should listen and believe or Jesus will never come back (Shall we discuss Jews for Jesus and their Baptist roots??), and some will shrug their shoulders after that assertion and say he never meant to form a NEW religion but rather provide an alternate path back to "The One True Gd" for the lost sheep of Israel. These Christians leave themselves WIDE OPEN for attack on the logical fallacy of that statement (because by this assertion, they're ALL wrong and they should instead convert to Judaism) but I've never found the humor in bashing a person's chosen path to Gd and badgering them into religious conversion. Judaism is not big on conversion. We have a process for it, and we gladly welcome the true convert, but we don't proselytize nor do we advocate that all people should join us.
If we buy the NT as a historical document, something detailing a man's deeds akin to a journal, we notice that Jesus never preached to the non-Jews. He only preached TO Jews. All those scragglers he had dinner with? Merely apostate Jews. Still Jews but apostates. He never preached to the Romans, and specifically commanded his troops to ONLY preach to Jews (Mat 10:5, Mat 15:24, and one could argue that Mat 28:19 was referring to the 12 tribes of Israel and not ALL the world). It's also important to note (you'll hear this argument a lot) that the Samarian woman described in John 4 was actually half Jewish (patrilineal descent). Jesus (as described in the gospels) was big on snapping up the half Jews and using them to further his mission. He frequently called them "The lost sheep of Israel" because while they weren't LEGALLY (remember, Jewish Law here, not civilian law) Jewish - which is a covenant passed down from the mother - they still had a Jewish spark in them and Jesus wanted them returned to the House of Israel. He talks about this a couple of times. He also goes after the fathers of such people a couple of times to bring THEM back into the Jewish fold. But again... nobody reads their Bible.
The complicated story of the Resurrection happened to prove Jesus was divine and thus not like you or I but also worthy of worship. It serves as an irrefutable point made by Christianity that their prophet was more than just another mortal prophet, but theirs was immortal and thus Divine because only Gd is immortal, and him BEING immortal and divine makes him the messiah. Here again we see the circular reasoning. How do we know he's Gd? He's the messiah. What makes him the messiah? He's immortal. How is he immortal? He died for 3 days, came back, told us he's Gd, and then floated away into space. So how again does this make him Gd?
See where I'm going.
Here's the thing about crucifixion though - it takes DAYS to kill a man, if not a solid week. You don't just bleed out up on the cross. You hang up there for a few days, stark naked, defecating and urinating all up in the public sphere. If you're LUCKY, the Romans didn't bash your legs all up to shit which gives you a blood clot and makes you die faster. And we know Jesus did not have his legs bashed all to hell because he was walking around showing his passion and crucifixion wounds to people. If they'd bashed his legs all to shit, those would still be bashed all to shit at the Resurrection.
According to Paul's retelling of the crucifixion (in I Corinthians), Jesus was only up there from 9am to 3pm, which is why he was tucked away in a hole quietly as it was coming up on Shabbat and you cannot bury the dead on Shabbat (plus we have laws about how we need to get people who were hung into the ground before night fall). So for 6 hours he hung up on a post, a death that modern researchers have proven would take DAYS unless you shatter both of the femurs and induce a pulmonary embolism.
For my tastes, I like science here. I like the 2003 study done by two scientists who state Jesus LIKELY went into "Suspension Shock", which would have rendered him totally unconscious and given the knowledge that they totally rushed through getting him DOWN so they could bury him before Shabbat, I'm inclined to think the man passed out cold and remained out cold until put vertical in the cave, where he woke up. But given as this whole thing happened on Passover (the last supper was a second night feast, as one of the gospels mentions Jesus going to a feast the night before the last supper), we have to kind of time frame him here. I imagine it took at least one full day to arrest him and get him ready for his 9am crucifixion. So he's arrested immediately following the second night of Passover supper, we're still in Day 2 of an 8 day holiday. You figure they have to do the whole "who punishes" him thing, which takes a day - day 3. Then we have the Passion - Day 4. Then the crucifixion on Day 5, which is ALSO on Shabbat. Since we're in Israel, Passover is only 7 days long, and the last two days are holidays, though one is on Shabbat so we've basically got three days of doing nothing.
That - to me - translates to Jesus being unconscious and we all mourned him but we had 2-3 hours to get him off the cross (an arduous process, don't you think?) and into a cave. Then he pops awake, spends a day or so moving the rock that's keeping him IN the cave, and goes on having his spiritual re-awakening.
Then he floats away.
And I have no answer for that last part.
What I DO know is that historical accounts of the Siege of Jerusalem (written by Josephus and Seneca the Younger) indicate that it wasn't a RARE phenomenon for a crucified person to magically wake up a few hours after being pulled off of the cross and then somehow mysteriously die of their own accord while being treated for their injuries (which was described by modern researchers as being by pulmonary embolism stemming from the Romans bashing their legs all to shit to hasten death). Both Josephus and Seneca the Younger record MANY instances of this exact event happening with crucified Jews, who were quick to be yanked down off of the cross (per Jewish Law on how you have to bury someone who dies by hanging by sunset).
The crucifixion? Fine. I'll buy that he was crucified, went through lots of torture, and died. That shit is even documented by historians of the time.
But what gets weird about the Bible is that The Ascension is kind of this vague concept until Paul starts writing angry letters to people in an effort to badger them into conversion. In Matthew, he just kind of wanders off saying stuff and presumably dies behind a rock out of view. Luke says "he left them and returned to heaven." Mark says "He was taken up to heaven." And John says he kept wandering around preaching to people until he presumably died a normal death (though that throws Paul out of whack because if Jesus had lived another 30 years, Paul wouldn't be writing about him the way he does). I mean the Gospels are all really VAGUE about the Ascension and to me it reads as though he just simply died again, not that his corporal being floated off into space. But Paul kind went a little nuts being so horribly oppressed as a Christian and in Acts and Romans he talks of Jesus floating off into the abyss. So really the Bible is clear that he was dead - we think - but then not dead. And then wandered around for a couple of hours or maybe a couple of days to a couple of years. Then died again. And is buried somewhere. Probably. But Paul says he's in an abyss at the right side of Gd.
It's a huge leap of faith, the Ascension. Everything leading up to that point in Jesus' life I can buy, maybe not as DIVINE but I can definitely buy a good chunk of it. But after that point, I'm sketchy. But it's a HUGE part of Christianity - this belief that his whole body flew up to heaven. In some streams, it's a required article of faith to believe that shit happened.
Scholars think that this became a bigger deal than it was intended (via Paul's letters) as a way to stop all the new disciples from saying, "I SAW HIM!" You did not. He's dead. In a cloud somewhere. HIS WHOLE BODY IS THERE TOO SO YOU DID NOT SEE HIM. GTFO. (there's also the knowledge we have the Josephus say the disciples stole his body after he died the second time and hid him so nobody else could see him)
I love a good game of telephone, don't you?
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