From: S
To: Rebelprofiler
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 6:19 pm
Subject: Re: religion and stuff
So- the Christian reasoning is that Jesus being the messiah backs up his divinity even if the fact that he was messiah would rule out any sort of divinity. That's weird.
I knew about the chair being reserved for Elijah thing, but didn't know that with some groups it is physically mounted to the wall. Is there any reason why the schools of thought are so staunchly differing?
Oh- speaking of the "protesting at soldiers' funerals," I actually saw the WBC in person about a week ago (it slowed up traffic something awful due to the police cars protecting them blocking the road). What, specifically, do you think about them? I mean obviously they're... er, different shall we say. But given your knowledge of religion, I'm interested to hear your take-- if you don't mind the random divergence from the conversation.
Are there any Christians with beliefs more akin to Conservative or Orthodox Judaism when it comes to the author of the Bible-- i.e. the first books written by divinity? Or is it more of an all-or-nothing opinion-- everything was only divinely inspired or that it's all the direct words?
I do notice a stylistic difference between, say, Gen. and Deu. For those who do not believe the first four are literally divinely written, is this explained by just a different (human) author, or are there other reasonings?
Yeah, the "Jews for Jesus" thing. I've heard of that before, but don't know much about it. Seems really strange to me.
Proselytizing is quite annoying, not to mention counter-intuitive, at least in my opinion. For every convert you make, how many more people do you irritate and make turn away from something they may have been simply luke-warm on before? Is it only a Christian phenomenon for the most part? I've only seen it with Christianity, but with where I'm from, I only know Christians and Jews so it's a relatively limited sample.
Wow, that's interesting. I didn't know that the "Gentiles" Jesus preached to/interacted with were actually--somewhat--Jews.
That not only seems like circular reasoning, but especially shaky circular reasoning to boot. Given that the messiah's not supposed to be a deity and all, at least according to Judaism--the religion from which Christianity branched.
I definitely follow the whole logic behind the not-quite-dead-yet "resurrection." And, as with the ancients' views on miracles and such, I can understand the thoughts behind those witnessing it seeing it as divine zombie-ism. Or immortality, y'know whatever. One thing I don't follow though-- you said that this is documented as having happened to other crucified Jews. So why weren't they considered divine and immortal? Why only Jesus? 'Cause his friends said so?
So what I'm getting is that the importance of the ascension might very well have been a big misunderstanding?
Also, with your descriptions of new disciples' faux Jesus-sightings, I can't help but think of those hillbillies who believe Elvis is still alive and swear they've seen him.
From: Rebelprofiler
To: S
Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:55 am
Subject: Re: religion and stuff
The schools of thought on Elijah's chair are not diametrically opposed to one another in that it's not wrong to mount a chair nor is it wrong to leave it in the corner. They're just differing opinions on the same concept (how to keep people from sitting in the chair). As with all things in Judaism, if you ask two Jews for their opinions on one thing, you'll get four opinions.
Christian logic is that Jesus filled all of the requirements of the Hebrew Moshiach. They don't often tell you HOW or what the requirements ARE. They just say "He fulfilled all of the requirements." Bunch of sheep. Those who do read their Bibles cite a bunch of verses randomly hand picked as being signs of the Moshiach. We're told of a young woman giving birth to a baby we should name Immanuel which means "He who is with Gd" (Is 7:14 - though my Hebrew scriptures provides a Talmud reference that talks about a great military ruler who will overthrow Babylon and save Judah, not to the Moshiach), in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2 - though it should be noted that Bethlehem is NOT mentioned in my Hebrew scriptures anywhere in ch. 5, and in my Christian Bible, it is Gd talking to a nation of Israel who is wandering from Gd and needs a military leader to come back to the House of Israel), his crucifixion (Psalms 22:14 - though again we do not have foretelling but David crying out against his OWN torture in this book in the Hebrew scriptures; same with the Christian Bible. The psalms were songs David wrote during his oppression), his resurrection (Psalm 16:10, but again, more of David's crying in both versions).
So while Gd outlined Moshiach very clearly in Jeremiah's prophetic (and oftentimes totally depressing) writings, Christians pulled from David's writings on military battles and his own oppression as proof that this man who SAID he was Gd and the Messiah was their personal Lord and Savior. The summation I can gather having pulled all three of my scriptural references down (An Artscroll Tanach - which provides the Talmud references, A JPS Tanakh - a more authentic translation of the actual Hebrew, and My NIV Bible - The go-to Christian standard Bible these days) is that a bunch of events happened and in order to validate the claims that Jesus was who he said he was, they started cherry picking scriptures that aren't often read in synagogue. MOSTLY from what I can gather in my Artscroll about Micah and Isaiah is that they were foretelling David's arrival on the scene (and set as Gd talking to Jacob/Israel, who is David's grandfather through Judah and Ruth, which is probably why "one will rise up from Judah and save his people", Micah ch 5) and not Moshiach, though one could argue that David is as close to a Moshiach as we Jews have right now, which is why he's such a BIG freaking deal to us.
The summation of the christian argument for Jesus as the messiah is that #1 - He said he was Gd, and he said he was the Messiah. #2 - His life and times were foretold in a bunch of ambiguous scriptures that the Jews themselves believed were about King David (though this argument doesn't come into play with the early Christians all that often, and you'll see that in Paul's writings - while he SAYS Jesus is the Moshiach, he never refers back to scripture all that often as proof. Peter does a few times, but Paul is REAL careful with no using King David's story as Jesus'; we see it spewed as fact as Christianity starts to grow as a separate religion from Judaism) And #3 - Jesus did a whole bunch of miraculous things that are further proof that he was not like you or me and thus holy. Like float off into an abyss.
As to being like Orthodoxy and Conservatism, I think you'll find a wide variety of opinions on who wrote the Bible and how it was thought up. By and large, most of them (Jews and Christians) believe that the Bible was written down by a man and inspired by Gd. Now, some people will get all up in arms about WHICH translation is correct: King James, NIV, etc. Jehovah's Witnesses are very clear that THEIR version (the New World Translation) is the most accurate. Mormons believe the KJV (yes that is the same KJV used by the Latin rites) is the right version. WBC believes their NIV is the right one. And the Amish read Martin Luther's German translation but they don't claim it is the CORRECT one, as that would lead to pride. There's a LOT of argument over WHICH version is right but the thing they all agree on is that the ORIGINAL scripts (written in Hebrew and Greek) are the most wholly accurate and without error. But they all pretty much believe that Gd was talking in the ear of a man who was writing it down. That basically lines up with Conservative thinking.
I don't know of too many groups who OFFICIALLY declare that the Torah or any other part of the Bible was the official hand of Gd written by Gd Herself. I know the Orthodox Jews hold that the first four books were written by Gd herself and handed down at Sinai but that over the years many men have rewritten this down and things get lost (like the proper way to pronounce YVHV, which is the proper name of Gd - note, the Hebrew scriptures are written without vowels. Vowels are implied and learned from the teacher). Fun fact for the day: Jehovah's Witnesses took the vowels for "Adonai" (the Lord) and mixed them into YVHV to come up with Jehovah. It's not an accurate translation of the word.
It's never an all-or-nothing thing to believe the scriptures were either ALL written by Gd or NONE written by Gd. Orthodox Jews are very careful to state that TORAH is written by Gd. The mistranslation in that statement is that ALL of the Old Testament was written by Gd. That's not what we argue. We argue that Torah - the first five books, more specifically the first FOUR - were written by Gd. Tanakh, the complete Hebrew scriptures (encompassing Torah, Nevi'im - the writings, and Kethuv'im - the prophets) are a mix, with Nevi'im and Kethuv'im being written by men. But since a lot of non-Jews call the ENTIRE Old Testament "the Torah" it leads to a lot of gaps in communication. I saw a lot of non-Jews wander into my Orthodox shul and ask the Rabbi if he believes the Torah was written by men or Gd. He would smile big and say "Torah is written by Gd." And then smirk. I have never seen the logic in this other than it seems to be a holier-than-thou act of pride to answer a direct question that you KNOW is misinformed to start with and not explain HOW it is misinformed. Maybe he gets tired of answering the same question all the time. Regardless, nothing in Judaism is all-or-nothing. Even with mitzvos, there are about 200 mitzvos that we simply cannot do because muslims built a temple on our Holy Temple and now we cannot properly worship there. But so you're Jewish... you can't do ALL of the remaining Mitzvos in one day. You can do some, but not all of them. Your goal is to do as many as humanly possible. Not in a day but over the course of your lifetime. Likewise, it's not an all or nothing gig that either the Hebrew scriptures were ALL written by Gd or NONE of it was written by Gd. Deuteronomy is very clear that "these are the words of Moses." Obviously not of Gd. In Psalms, it routinely says "A psalm of David". Gd =/= David. Judaism is this heavy vat of grey area. But that comes again from how it is not a FAITH but a RELIGION, and how it is ACTIONS rather than BELIEFS that make or break your status as a Jew. We're not concerned with what happens after this world. We're only concerned about our mark while we're here. The rest is up to Gd.
As to WBC. I really think that their leader is going to be blinked out of existence at the end of his life and I think that church is going to Deify him when he dies. I feel this an awful shame because they will be creating a false Gd out of their leader, which goes against the Noachide laws. Their position on Jews is that we killed Jesus so they hate all Jews and The Chosen People are all going to hell. From talking with the granddaughter of the leader, there is simply no hope at all ever for a Jew. Once you are born a Jew, you will die a Jew and go to hell for killing Jesus, regardless of whether or not you try to accept Christ in the 11th hour. I tried to infiltrate them via the net once and was blocked immediately after they found out I was a Jew. Even though I expressed sincere (*snort*) regrets for the "sins of my father" I was told that there is no way for me to EVER get into heaven. It was at that moment that I realized that they were not interested in SAVING people or converting people or getting people up to heaven, like they CLAIM, but in reminding them that they're all damned and there's nothing they can do about it. After some hard prayer on the subject, I decided simply to do as Jesus did... forgive them for they know not what they do. The last time they came to town, some Jews and I went to protest. I picked up a bunch of flowers and passed out the flowers to the WBC. I said simply, "I forgive you" as I handed them each a flower. Half of them threw the flower to the ground when I said "I forgive you" but some of them stopped and stared at me for a moment. And then I moved on with my life. My Jewish friends were totally pissed at me because I'm the dog you WANT on your side in a religious fight with Christians. But in that moment, I knew that MY Gd would not have wanted me adding jet fuel to their fire of hate. Gd would have wanted me to love them, to show them I love them, and to forgive them. That's how I feel about WBC. I'm a Jew first. All other things come second to that. And as a Jew, I'm commanded to love everyone, even those that don't love me back. In a picture I saw posted to the newspaper, at least three of them were holding flowers WITH their signs. And in that moment, I knew I healed the world a little.
Jews don't proselytize. Our official position is based on attraction rather than promotion. We lead good wholesome Torah observant lives, and we hope that - with the light of Torah raging on inside of us - that others see it. Which is why we don't hang Christmas lights and the only light burning for public display on Hanukkah is that of the Hannukiah - it is a symbol that NO light is greater than the light of Gd and Torah. And we face the Hanukkiah in a window looking out at the street so that others might see the Light of Torah burning in this home and be drawn to it. Kabbalah states that the only people who will be drawn to the light of Torah are fellow Jews who are lost, and it is a mitzvah to help the lost Jew find their way home.
Jews for Jesus, though, is not affiliated with any Jewish stream, and even the Messianic Jews have rejected Jews for Jesus as being a part of them. Back in the 50's this Jew converted to Christianity and became a Baptist minister. He decided to focus his outreach at getting Jews to become Christians because the messiah will never come back until all Jews hear the truth. The BIG difference between his ministry and Evangelical Christian ministries is that some of their program is in Yiddish and Hebrew, they celebrate Christian versions of Jewish holidays, and they don't recognize that Judaism is a valid faith, believing instead that Judaism was rendered complete with the addition of Jesus Christ. MOST of Christianity considers Judaism to be one path out of many paths to finding Gd and is okay with it existing. What splits the Hebrew Christians (of which Jews for Jesus is affiliated) from the Messianic Jews is that Hebrew Christians do not find Halacha to be binding. Messianic Jews do.
Now it PAINS me to call them Messianic Jews, because anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as his/her personal Lord and Savior is a Christian and not a Jew. And any Jew who accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior is not a Jew either. But there is a clear distinction between the Hebrew Christians and the Messianic Jews in that Messianic Jews do not proselytize the way that Hebrew Christians do. I think here is where we note that the GOAL of Christianity is to bring the word of Jesus to the most remote corners of the world so that you have the chance to hear about and potentially reject Christ as a savior. I think it's pretty naive of us to think there is anyone on the face of the earth (minus the North Koreans) who has NOT heard of Jesus Christ by now. But in their arrogance, they patrol around trying to "win souls for Jesus." I once had a Christian missionary (a very pretty black woman) stop by my door on Shabbat and invite me to church with her. I said very simply "Oh thank you but I'm Jewish." Without missing a beat she said, "Oh it's okay! We accept all races." -______-
Finally - the other Jews who were "suspension shocked" weren't born to a virgin in Bethlehem, then were turned on by their own people only to suffer great persecution, and didn't float off into space. It's one thing to be a rebel rouser. Jesus was definitely a rebel rouser. But when you're just another loud mouthed Jew talking shit about the emperor who gets strung up on a cross during a 10 year military siege... you apparently don't make the history books until you float off into space. Jesus had one thing going for him - press. He was written about a LOT in his day. This would be like you and me and Bill O'Reilly all standing on street corners preaching about how Obama is a dick and we should take him and his communist regime down. You and I might ALSO get strung up on a cross, and resurrect after "dying" on the cross, but Bill O'Reilly makes the papers when it happens.
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